Talk:Quest Guide Template

Last Minute Critique

Template Looks good. A couple things I noticed: The "Jump to" links at the top are out of order. I think they should be in the same order as the sections themselves. I think it might be more clear that the "Quick Links" are anchors" if we either made it look a little different, or simply added a Jump To: prefix before the links (similar to the intro template). Right now, it kind of looks like its going to take you to another page entirely. Another idea might be to align the links to the left side, and then add that "Quest" image/icon that Tlosk made next to them. Might give it a little more flare? Any idea if we want to add the appendix section? Quests like Harbinger Quest and Gaerlan's Citadel have supplementary resources like riddles and Harbinger Items. In the current template, where should this be placed? If we made a standardized (and optional) appendix section above the "Images", it might clear that up. Kind of last minute, but do you think it would be a good idea to separate the Quest Items and Item Rewards? Since we have XP Rewards, and Title Rewards, it kind of seems like Item Rewards should be of "similar importance" on a category heading level. Just my .o2 cents, but everything looks good so far! --Atarax 13:28, 17 February 2009 (CST)

I posted an example of a possible quick links block on the Test Quest Page‎. --Atarax 14:58, 17 February 2009 (CST)

I think that since the appendix sections are going to be a somewhat rare occurrence, they don't need to be included in the basic template. I think it would be better to add a note in the Quest Guide Template once it is updated that says something like "For quest that require additional information, such as riddle questions and answers, Create a new section header under Images (or where ever)" Items - The items sections already does divide rewards and quest items. I think this is the best solution to keep all item listings in one location and still separate rewards and quest only items. Plus, item rewards are linked to in the summary. I see what you are saying about having an Item Rewards section, but I'm just not convinced we really need to sections for items. I agree, the quick links could use something like "Jump To", "Shortcuts", "Table of Contents" or whatever, and should be displayed in the same order as the sections they link to. --An Adventurer 16:31, 17 February 2009 (CST)

The ordering was a mistake and has been fixed. I can put the appendix information in the bulleted list at the start. I agree we should keep items a single section and separate the items and rewards into different tables within the section. I have a strong preference for using the same format for links as is used for internal pages, also it degrades more gracefully in small browser windows. I'm going to move this to the normal page now and update some old quests to try to catch any more errors, we can continue to tweak it though as needed. --Tlosk 18:19, 19 February 2009 (CST)

I like the template, and especially the optional possibilities for different titles and xp rewards. However, I noticed when using the xp reward table, the Description does not show up when using this template (See Bur Mushroom Collection). I noticed the same thing in the Test Quest Page. --Sanddh 3:30, 5 March 2009 (CET)

Oops I started changing it and got sidetracked before I finished. It should all be working now (instead of having unique parameters for each task, it now uses a subtemplate for each row which keeps the names simpler and lets us add as many tasks as needed). --Tlosk 06:39, 5 March 2009 (CST)

Quest Summary & Section Standards

• Test Quest Page - For use in creating the quest template. All work from An Adventurer's Sandbox is located here now.

I have created a quick mockup of some of my ideas for the quest summary and section names in An Adventurer's Sandbox. Its not perfect of course, the main thing I wanted to show with it is my idea for the summary table. Basically, there would be two variations in the lines within the table for item rewards, exp rewards, and title rewards. For quests with only 1 or 0 item/title/exp rewards, these are listed directly in the quest summary. For quests with multiple item/title/exp rewards, the summary table says "varies" and provides a link to the section detailing all the rewards. Quests that do not have multiple or varying experience rewards would not have an Experience rewards section. Same goes for titles. Note that I have kept the quest links in - I think they do a better job at providing quick links in little space than the TOC would do. Also, I re-ordered the entries on the table, and list intro/update patches at the bottom, with no related quest section in the summary. My thoughts on related quests are they should be listed in more detail in the General section. Related quests could also be quickly linked at the very top of the page using the Related Template if needed. --An Adventurer 15:55, 9 February 2009 (CST)

To add to my post above: I am not against the idea of moving the summary to the right side, Atarax has a good point - it works well for wikipedia articles. However, if we do move it, I have some suggestions. 1) remove the live image, it is just wasted space. 2) Summary should be broken into multiple tables/sections, that if at all possible are collapsible like the TOC. There should be at least 2 sections - summary and rewards. Summary would contain quest type, level restrictions, level suggestions, timer, and introduced in patch. Rewards would have three sections for items, titles, and experience. Items listed here should be just links, no icons. In the rewards summary table, if the experience/title listings are too long or too complex, we can place links to the possible Exp/Title reward sections (see my section suggestions below). We need to come up with the list of sections that all quests will include. My suggestions are: General (Possibly change to requirements/restrictions) - a place to list facts one should know before starting a quest - any prereq quests, if it requires LP, if it requires levers, if there is a time limit Walk Through - Leave the same as it is now, using numbered lists to provide the quest guide Maps - Leave the same as it is now. Note that is is moved above items, because it is is more closely related to the guide and more useful information to have near the top. Also the section will usually only be links and not take up much room. Items - I think we would benefit if there was either a wiki template or a copy/paste template for placing items into invisible tables. The single column list creates wasted space. Experience Rewards - An optional section perhaps - I have an example of it in An Adventurer's Sandbox which uses a table that Atarax put together. Title Rewards - An optional section perhaps - I have an example of it in An Adventurer's Sandbox which uses a table that Atarax put together. Images - A standard Gallery style would be nice. Image section is placed here because it is low usefulness. Lore & Dialog - keep it as is. Leave it here on the bottom since most don't care about the lore/text. Notes - Unsure if this is needed. I think any information listed here could be in the general section, but Atarax has a point - information in Notes would not be important to know when running the quest, and is thus not a priority to have at the top of the page. I think that we should not place the standard wiki TOC on quest pages. I also think that if we move the quest summary to the right, we should remove the quest links. I think instead, we should place the quest links at the top of the article, above the general section/walk through section. These would be simple links placed along the top of the page (similar to related or intro templates) that link to the lower sections of the article - General and Guide links would not be needed as they are at the top of the page. Links would begin at maps instead. I am not very good at coding this stuff. I will try my best to create my thoughts on my sandbox page, but I may end up creating it as an image in photoshop and uploading it. --An Adventurer 18:00, 9 February 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer, Atarax I don't really have any strong feelings on what the quest page should look like so I'm going to focus on some of the minor templates and once you've reached consensus on what it should include point me to an example and I'll code up the template. --Tlosk 17:46, 9 February 2009 (CST)

I updated An Adventurer's Sandbox with my mock-up of my new idea for the quest template, using Aerbax's Prodigal Drudge as the example. --An Adventurer 19:18, 9 February 2009 (CST)

I was about to post and tell you that I updated Atarax's Sandbox to change some of the things that you pointed out. However, after seeing you're new comp, I'm sold. I like the use of color and the easy access to all the information. I still think separating the Reward Items from the Quest Items would be a good idea, so we can show the icons at the top (in between general & walk through), but if not, its ok. Also, we could probably sneak a 300x300 image in there underneath the right block. Might add a nice touch. Or at least we could find somewhere to put the "teaser image" on the page. But other than that, I like your design and we should go with it. --Atarax 19:27, 9 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax Thanks. I like the new quest summary table I created, but the whole template still needs a lot of work. I made it mostly from copy/paste code I took from stuff Tlosk had created. Here are some questions/observations I have on my template, let me know what you think: Do you think that listing the item rewards + icons above the guide is necessary? I think not - the direct links to the rewards (w/o icons) is listed in the Rewards Summary section. There is a quick link to the Item section in both the top quick links and in the Rewards Summary - and I have divided the Item section into rewards (top) and items related to the quest (bottom). I would like to improve the look of the quick links section to better match the look of the quest summary, and also align with it better. I think it would work as a modification of the current Quest Links template, which would be placed at the top of the page instead of within the summary. One issue though - not every quest has title rewards or variable exp rewards. Will those quests still include the section headers? I would think not. Are the Title Rewards and Experience Rewards necessary in the quick links, if any quest with those sections will already link to them within the reward summary? I think not. I would be for removing those two from the quick links. I like your renaming of the General section to Overview. I think that is better, and I am all for creating the Notes section and placing it as the last section. I agree, adding a 300 width teaser image below the summary would be fine. I just wasn't sure how to do it so I left it out. In the Rewards Summary, the listing is XP/Item/Title, but in the structure of the sections, its Item/XP/Title. I think they should be in the same order. The tables in the Title Rewards and Experience Rewards sections were quickly thrown together from your work in the previous version of Atarax's Sandbox. They could use a visual and layout improvement to better match the look of the quest summary. We need to decide on a standard form for the image gallery. This is being discussed in another section of this talk page. I like the <gallery> tags. A standard template for placing items + icons into a 4 column table would be great (I think Tlosk is working on this as I type this). I think that all maps should only be listed as links. There are very few internally hosted dungeon maps, most are on ACmaps. Since all of those are going to be just text links, it would be nice if Asheron.info's maps were displayed the same way. I Also think that the format should be [[Internal link to dungeon page]] - [External/internal link to map]. On that line, I think the Maps section should be renamed == Dungeons & Maps == or == Maps & Dungeons == This is just a minor tweak, but I think the colors should be switched around for the 3 headers within the summary table. I was thinking perhaps Rewards Summary would be green (green=exp), Related Articles would be blue (blue=link), and Quest Summary would be red - or any other color for that matter. As for the template code of the new quest summary, I imagine it would look something like this: {{Quest Summary | Quest Type = | Start Location = [[Location]] | Timer = | Level Restrictions = | Level Suggestions = | Max XP Reward = (if left blank, N/A Text would appear) | XP Link On = True/False (shows/hides the "full details here" link) | Item Rewards = [[Item1]], [[Item2]](if left blank, N/A Text would appear) | Item Link On = True/False (shows/hides the "full details here" link) | Titles = Title1, Title2 (if left blank, N/A Text would appear) | Title Link On = True/False (shows/hides the "full details here" link) | Patch Introduced = [[Patch Name]] | Updated = (if left blank, entire "Updated In" line would be removed) | Related Quests = (if left blank, entire "Related Quests" line would be removed) | Teaser Image = {{PAGENAME}} Teaser.jpg }} --An Adventurer 20:34, 9 February 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer The new template is shaping up nice, I like the icon at the top too. Here's a couple suggestions, from my first look. For the first "Jump To" block. Make it the exact width of the quest summary block, and then have it positioned right above the "Quest Summary" block. Then you can remove the "Jump To" that's below the teaser image. I suppose we could keep it there also, for usability, and it would look better if it were the exact width of the quest summary block. We could create an "Appendix", like "Appendix A", "Appendix B", etc... or like "Appendix (XP)", "Appendix (Titles)", etc... at the bottom of every writeup which could contain the XP table, title charts, etc... So for titles and XP distributions that require these tables, you could have a "See Appendix A" or "See Appendix B" links under XP or titles sections for people to click on. This might also be a standardized way to organize all "supplemental" tables/charts. I was thinking the same could be done to the Harbinger Quest, where the Harbinger Items could be listed under an Appendix with everything else. Other than that, its looking good. I think we should get it finalized and put it into production! :) --Atarax 16:19, 11 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax I made some changes to the jump to/summary/teaser image, so it all aligns well now. This involved removing the frame property from the image and changing the width of the summary from 320 to 300. Appendices - I see your point for quests like harbinger. We could even use them for quests with riddles. But I'm not sure we need to rename the Experience Rewards and Title Rewards sections and move them to the bottom. I think those sections are fine where they are - although the tables need work. What I see appendices being useful for is any time a quest would need an additional, non-standard section. Since there are many quests with multiple experience rewards and titles, I would consider those sections standard. And as I explained above, any time there is a quest that only has 0 or 1 exp/title reward, the sections and links to them are simply left out. The image at the top - I'm not sure about it. It doesn't look bad or anything, it just seems a bit out of place to me. Seems like if we are trying to name the first section "Quest Overview" we should do it with just text, like all the other sections. I do like that the "Quest" image redirects to the main quest page. But we could accomplish the same thing by just naming the section == [[Quest]] Overview == where Quest redirects to Quests. --An Adventurer 12:33, 12 February 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer Looks good. If the "Quest" image wasn't there, it wouldn't bother me. Looks fine either way. I think it actually looked better at 320px wide and the border around the image. Just kinda gives it a more of a "its supposed to be there" feeling. Do you think it would look better if you put the "Jump To" block just underneath the Quest Summary header? Maybe with a slightly darker BG or something? I think it would probably look good either way. But maybe having the Red header right at the top is a good thing? I also disagree with is having links in the topic headers. We discussed this earlier in the Talk:Quest_Guide_Template#Links_in_Topic_Headings talk. Do you think putting the TOC below the image is too much? I tried it out in Atarax's Sandbox for your quest, and its actually kinda nice IMO. Other than that, I think its pretty awesome :) --Atarax 12:46, 12 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax Made some minor changes in my sandbox. I removed the Quests image from the overview header. I added the jump to links in the Quest Summary red section, very similar to how the current quest template looks. I restored the frame around the teaser image and adjusted table width for better alignment. And I added the TOC next to the quest summary. I don't think the TOC looks bad under the image, but it is hard to get it to align to the right side. Also, I'm not sure how good the TOC will look for quests where the walkthrough has subsections with longer names, such as the guides for the burun kings and other epic quests. I think the best place for the TOC would be left of the Summary Table, with the tops of the summary and TOC aligned. I edited my sandbox to include this - tell me what you think. Also, if we decide to go with the TOC placed here, should we remove the quick links and/or the full details here links? --An Adventurer 14:14, 12 February 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer Ya, I think if you add the ToC, it would have to be below the image. Putting it next to the summary is already pretty wide, and if you have a larger quest, it would be unreadable. I don't think it looks bad aligned to the left side of the image, that way its in the same location, regardless of how wide the ToC becomes. I'd say we either align it flush with the left side under the picture, or just omit it. I'll try to use your template to mock up a large quest like Burun Kings and see what it looks like. Considering most of the space below the picture is just open anyway, I don't think it will look to bad. --Atarax 14:46, 12 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax There are issues either way. Put it at the top and it takes up more space there. But it provides links to all sections right at the top, and the TOC is collapsible so it can be moved out of the way of the guide. Put it below the quest teaser image, its out of the way of the content, but its also about half way down the page - it loses its usefulness in providing quick links to the page, which is why the quick links in the summary were first added. Personally, I think I'd rather get rid of the TOC completely, and just rely on the quick links. --An Adventurer 15:15, 12 February 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer What if we did something like this (see: Atarax's Sandbox), where we thumbnail the image in the top left, and then just put the TOC directly below the summary block. If we could figure out a way to always force the "Walk Through" to start just below the image, then it might look good. *shrug*, if its not possible, then we can just omit the TOC. --Atarax 15:50, 12 February 2009 (CST)

I think we should use a ToC link bar like is used on wiki special pages with a fixed number of sections, where it spans the width of the page with the links centered like at the top of Image:Bound Wisp Live.jpg. I could make the template have switches so you could add or remove sections as desired. This would also let us use the actual section names instead of contractions. For example see Sandbox Two#Example 8. --Tlosk 20:25, 12 February 2009 (CST)

To: Tlosk Template looks great. My only suggestion for improvement is the Title Rewards Table - if it could have labels like the xp table above: task 1 = , task 1 title = , task 2 = , and so on. --An Adventurer 19:18, 16 February 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer Sure, I changed it to use named parameters now. --Tlosk 09:53, 17 February 2009 (CST)

Links in Topic Headings

This may be just my opinion, but I don't like having the headings to topics be links, like Maps, Titles, Lore & Dialog, etc... I think the headers should all stay consistent throughout the article as black text for readability. Different browsers handle links (and visited links) differently, and IMO it kind of takes away from the readability of the page when they are all mixed in there. Aside from aesthetics and readability, I think its pointless to have them be links anyway. They are very "top level" terms, which would be very easy to find for everyone, so I don't think it needs to be a link on every quest page. Just my .o2 cents. --Atarax 15:02, 8 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax I agree, it does look better with uniform section headings. I'm having trouble with the summary box, I've mocked up a few examples, Sandbox Two, if you have any suggestions or what you think works well. --Tlosk 18:52, 8 February 2009 (CST)

To: Tlosk From those examples, I definitely think Example 5 looks the best. However, I think that the Intro should be a part of the quest summary block instead of having a its own block like items do. See the #Introduced/Updated/Related links comments below. I think it would also be cool if we could incorporate the Table of Contents somewhere on the page. For long quests, its actually kinda helpful. Maybe under the Live image on the right side, similar to how you did the Exemplar template? If we enforced the 300x300 Live image, it might look decent. --Atarax 19:51, 8 February 2009 (CST)

I find the Template:Quest Links section useful since they link to the most useful sections quickly. However, with an improved quest guide template and a more standard set of sections, I think placing the actual TOC somewhere might work just as well. I like Atarax's idea of putting the TOC under the live image like we have on some creature pages & the forum. I agree, an established standard size like 300x300 or 300x400 would be nice. --An Adventurer 20:39, 8 February 2009 (CST)

To: Tlosk, An Adventurer I did a quick mock up of a an idea I had for a quest template in Atarax's Sandbox. I used the Clutch of Kings (Browerk) quest as content to fill it up. You guys might like it or hate it, but I feel that it gets the important info at the top and puts the nice-to have stuff off to the side, so we don't feel like we're having to cram everything in there. Its just a rough comp, I'm sure it could use a lot of help, but what do you guys think? --Atarax 23:49, 8 February 2009 (CST) P.S. I also included an alternative XP Reward Table and Title Reward Table in the Talk:Atarax's Sandbox page. So where the XP & title rewards are listed, we could have a table to handle quests that hand out multiple XP rewards and/or multiple title rewards under various conditions. --Atarax 03:24, 9 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax, An Adventurer I've incorporated the suggestions into the template and the Summoning T'thuun page uses it so you can see an example. The ToC cannot be included directly below the image because it would extend the overall table and push down the start of the content so it just floats at the start of the content instead (leaving the quest links in the table allows quick access to maps in a predictable location). I think we should leave the quest image size arbitrary as that is the gateway image and should be cropped to fit the content. Now that it no longer overlaps in small browser windows a standard size isn't critical. I very much like what you've done with the Clutch of Kings, I think for more elaborate quest pages we could have a separate page template that doesn't use wiki templates in order to give the maximum amount of flexibility in customizing to best fit the content (and since the people most likely to undertake the very large, complex quest writeups will likely be experienced wiki contributors). After we've finished tweaking it we can use what Atarax has done as the framework for the elaborate template. Perhaps also with options for the sections as well (using it on a few other quests like Lady Aerfalle and Undead Mechanic for example will help see if there's any additional angles to consider). We could use the standard quest template for initial postings and move to the elaborate template as needed. I've created a new page Elaborate Quest Guide Template and we can move discussion of the particulars to Talk:Elaborate Quest Guide Template. --Tlosk 06:38, 9 February 2009 (CST)

First - I do not think we should have two different quest guide templates, especially two that look so different. What would qualify a quest to use the elaborate template? In fact, I think we should remove the non-existent killtask template and use the quest guide template for killtasks - they woud just list type as killtask, along with a killtask category tag. As for the templates in Atarax's Sandbox+talk page: I like some aspects and dislike others. I think we should incorporate parts of it into the quest template. I like the EXP table - it is much more clear than trying to list it all in the summary. I dislike the item rewards section. I think all related items to the quest should stay in the single item section. If needed, one could list rewards first and then quest-use only items after, but I do not think they need to be split into two sections - it just stretches out the TOC. I like the simpler quest summary, but I think it is too simplified - you now have to look elsewhere for some basic info. I dislike combining the summary + live image, and moving it to the right side, but that is probably just because I am used to the current look. I am against using the Intro template on quest pages. Too many quests are updated multiple times or have multiple related quests. Besides, with quests, you will want to know more than just when it was updated or what quests are related - you will want to know what changes were made and exactly how other quests are related - this info is best placed in the general information section. I think overall, the quest template on Atarax's Sandbox looks too cluttered. And it will look even more cluttered with exp and title tables at the top. I agree the current template could use improvement. I may work on my own version of a quest template. --An Adventurer 15:06, 9 February 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer First, I agree that we should only have 1 quest template, having multiple versions is too confusing. Second, let me explain some of the logic behind the "Rewards" section. What I was trying to do was put the most relevant information at the top, while getting rid of the non-essential stuff. I would say that the "Rewards" (XP, Titles, Items) are the most important part of a quest article, its the whole reason why the article is written, so naturally it should be towards the top. That said, my biggest complaint with the current template is that it "doesn't fit" the rewards for a growing number of quests. Either the quest yields a lot of items, or it has a lot of titles, or it gives XP for several different turn ins, or all of the above. So I think the challenge, is to create ONE flexible template that can handle any/all of these situations. This is the reason why I thought having a "Rewards" section would be more useful than trying to cram it all into a small summary block. The summary block becomes a problem on quests like Lady Aerfalle Quest, where half the "items" are rewards, the other half are just items you use along the way. So saying "see below" really doesn't help you find out what items are rewards from the quest, unless you're already familiar with it. The other example, is a quest like Aerbax's Prodigal Harbinger, where the rewards and titles were entered into the summary block. Its already way too long, and just glancing at the item rewards, there are at least 3 or 4 rewards that aren't even listed at the top. If you change your screen resolution to 1024x768, you have to scroll down quite a ways just to get to the beginning of the write-up. I completely agree with you that there needs to be some more conformity to the template, but I think the goal should be to create 1 template that works for all quests, regardless of the type, size, length, or number of rewards. I also agree that I don't like the Intro template at the top, it could easily be put under the quest summary block. However, I also think that having "Updated In" is completely irrelevant, and it should be just put in the notes at the very bottom of the article. Also, having "Related Quests" really should only be used in a series of quests, like in the Burun Kings, or Blackmire, or Perfect Light quests, etc... I think linking to "Similar" quests that aren't related is irrelevant too, that's the job of the article category. As far as the block on the right side, at first I found it to be weird too. But in the end, I think it works better because it allows you to start your "Content" (meat of the article) right at the very top of the page and the readability of the article is never interrupted, regardless of how long the summary or ToC is. I looked around to see what other Wikis did, and found that a lot of people do it this way. Here's a completely irrelevant example, but if you pretend it's a quest, you see how it fits. Look at the Larry Fitzgerald or the United States Wikipedia entries. The summary block is on the right, and the readability of the page is completely intact. I think it translates perfectly to our circumstances here. Another example (I just found) is this CNN Article. If you picture the quest block on that layout, you see where it would go. The content (actual article) starts right at the top of the page, without being hindered by the huge summary block. My biggest gripe about the mock up that I did, was like you mentioned, the rewards section. I think if we turned that into a "standardized" section, it could work, even with with a different color background or something, I dunno. Maybe the wiki code has the tech to do collapsible tables, kinda like that CNN table? Might be something there. In the end, I'm not sold on either template as it is, but my vote, regardless of what we come up with, is definitely to start the "useful content" at the top, and anything that's "nice to know" should be buried at the bottom somewhere. Lol, that was long winded, but I hope I got my point across. And please know, that I'm definitely not trying to shadow your opinion on this subject, because I think you have very valid points. --Atarax 17:01, 9 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax Some good points. I think we should continue this discussion in the section above Quest Summary & Section Standards since I think this is about more than just the topic headings. I will write something there shortly. --An Adventurer 17:33, 9 February 2009 (CST)

Image Standardization

Similar to the Talk:Point of Interest Template, and others that have have the possibility of several live images, I think there needs to be a standardization of image naming, size, and display. Here's a few standardization techniques we could use: Live quest images should be added as 800x800px. Having all the images the same size really makes the page look a lot better. When they are all different, the page gets out of whack, like in the Elysa's Favor Quest article. Images should be displayed with the thumbnail wrapper using the |thumb| feature. Images should be named Article Name Image 1.jpg, Article Name Image 2.jpg, Article Name Image 3.jpg, etc... {| |- |valign=top|[[Image:Article Name Image 1.jpg|thumb|Description of Image 1]] |valign=top|[[Image:Article Name Image 2.jpg|thumb|Description of Image 2]] |valign=top|[[Image:Article Name Image 3.jpg|thumb|Description of Image 3]] |- |} For an example, see Clutch of Kings (Browerk)#Images. I think if we do this it will clear up a lot of confusion on how to handle images. --Atarax 14:55, 8 February 2009 (CST)

Unfortunately 800x800 creates very large file sizes and also wouldn't be possible for people that play in 800x600 or 1028x768 to create. One way of creating a more standard layout and uniform appearance with images that differ in dimension is to use the gallery function. For example Elysa's Favor Quest#Images: <gallery widths=150px perrow=4> Image:Asuger Temple End.jpg|Asuger Temple End Image:Reformed Bandit's House.jpg|The Reformed Bandit's House Image:Reform Bandit Portal Recall.jpg|The Escape Plan Image:Farm House Trap Door.jpg|Farm House Trap Door Image:Ostentatious Farm House.jpg|The Farm House Image:Farm House Storage Chest Live.jpg|The Storage Chest Image:Stranger in Town's House.jpg|The Stranger in Town's House Image:Captured Adventurer Live.jpg|Captured Adventurer Image:Fort Witshire Aerial View.jpg|Fort Witshire Image:Fort Witshire Barricade.jpg|Fort Witshire Barricade </gallery> Also for the naming convention, I think it would be helpful to prepend the quest name as suggested, though I think instead of a number the rest should be descriptive as the numbering isn't static and could change (if additional images are added later to fill in gaps in the coverage for example). --Tlosk 06:02, 9 February 2009 (CST)

To: Tlosk I think the gallery tag will work just fine, and I like how it shrinks them all to the same size for the thumbs. Do you think there's a way to add some styles to it so it looks more like the thumbs from Aerbax's Citadel? --Atarax 11:10, 9 February 2009 (CST)

Introduced/Updated/Related links

Is there a reason for the change of removing the intro/update from the summary and replacing it with the intro template besides consistent look? I ask because I made most of my decisions about the new intro template based on the thought that the quest summary would remain the same, with intro and update information in the summary table, and any related quests would be listed at the top of the page with the Related template. Most monsters, npcs, and items only have 2 peices of info: intro patch and related quest. Some will have updates or multiple quests. But quests are updated much more frequently, and are often part of a series of quests. So my concern is that the Intro template will fill up and look cluttered on a lot of quests. --An Adventurer 11:33, 8 February 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer, Tlosk I agree, I prefer the current quest summary block, with no bar at the top. The one we've been using for awhile is pretty good IMO. --Atarax 14:21, 8 February 2009 (CST)

Multi-Level/Version Quest Guide

I think we need to come up with standardized template to handle "Multi-level" and "multi-version" quests. There are several that I know of, like Zaikhal Defender, The Blackmire Series, Harbinger Quest, and Gaerlan's Citadel. The format we use for a quest writeup, especially with the new Quest Links format doesn't really work if we combine the write-ups, plus it gets very long and confusing when part of the quest is shared and other parts are unique (like Harbinger). I think its still a good idea to keep them on one page, but perhaps some way to standardize them would be good? Its actually relatively easy for quests like Zaikhal Defender and Gaerlan's Citadel, as you'll see I simply put the level requirement in the title, like Walkthrough (80+). But, for quests like Harbinger Quest, where there really is no level requirement, and you could choose to do either version at any time, what should we do to organize this? I tried to clean it up a little bit, but right now I think that write-up is pretty messy. --Atarax 11:11, 15 January 2009 (CST)

I had more typed up, but I think it should all come down to this: If the different versions of quests share timers, they should be listed as a single quest. If their timers are unique, then give them each a page. My guess is that very few quests with multiple versions share timers. --An Adventurer 11:51, 15 January 2009 (CST)

That makes sense. So the next question is, how to we better organize those pages to succinctly display the two guides without repeating ourselves for the data that is shared between both versions? Maybe we create one Walk Through heading, then describe each section in order:

* Part 1: Harbinger Tunnels (All Versions)

* Part 2A: Harbinger's Lair (Hard Version Only)

* Part 2B: Essence Chambers (Easy Version Only)

Does that look like it would work? --Atarax 12:00, 15 January 2009 (CST)

Remove Detailed Walk Through Section?

I think we should also remove the Detailed Walk Through portion of the quest template. Nobody uses it, and when they do, its just repeated text from the Walk Through with a bunch of Dialog mixed in, which makes it a little hard to read. Anyone object? --Atarax 13:38, 13 January 2009 (CST)

There are a few quests that use it, I believe the reasoning was that anything that doesn't apply we just delete, and a template will generally contain the range of options. But I didn't add it, so they can probably give the reasoning better than I can. --Tlosk 14:52, 13 January 2009 (CST)

The reason for having it was to provide an area to have long detailed guides, like the step-by-step guide for navigating the dungeon in Aerbax's Prodigal Mosswart, or when I redo it, the riddles and such from Aerbax's Prodigal Lugian. The walkthrough section was meant for shorter guides - something that for the most part could be cut and pasted into parchments/books - where details are not listed, just the short objectives like go to 12.3s, 45.6w, enter dungeon, kill boss at end, loot item. --An Adventurer 15:05, 13 January 2009 (CST)

I see what you mean about the puzzles and riddles, etc... My only complaint is that it gets pretty long and difficult to read at some point, because usually you want the detailed how-to or resource information, even in the basic write-up.

1. I think we should try to limit navigating the dungeon to basic steps, and then if they need clarification, simply refer them to the map. In general, trying to navigate written instructions for a complicated dungeon is pretty difficult to start with.
2. Perhaps instead of a detailed walk through, we could have a Resources section on an article specifically for diagrams or resource tables like puzzles or riddles. This could come into play with the Harbinger Items#Harbinger Items resource table, as well as the Gaerlan's_Citadel#Trial #1: The Riddle resource table. That way in the Walk Through, instead of listing everything right there, we can just link to the HTML Anchor for that resource. This way the Walk Through stays concise but all the data is there for reference only. This would also be a good for people who want to try to figure out the puzzle themselves, and not have it right in their face while they read the Walk Through. Just a couple ideas, but what do you think? --Atarax 11:34, 15 January 2009 (CST)

Maps Section and Custom Table of Contents

I think we should remove the 'Map' section from the quest summary and always place them below under the Maps section, like Mukkir Aspect of Grael. Also, I think we should make the Images section standardized (include it in the template), using the template from Aerbax's Citadel. Thoughts? --Atarax 12:42, 2 January 2009 (CST)

Adding Images section to the template would be a good idea. Personally I like having the maps in the summary, partly because most maps are on acmaps so we can't include them in the body but primarily because when I go back to a writeup that's often the link I'm looking for right away and it's nice to have a standard place to look for the link. If most maps were hosted here I'd agree with having a maps section (we've approached Greeneye about the possibility and for a couple of reasons he only wants us to use links). I'd be fine with adding a Maps section the template though, so we can use it for new quests we are hosting the maps (if I stop slacking and turn around the stack of drafts I've got hehe.--Tlosk 13:01, 2 January 2009 (CST)

Even if the map is hosted at ACMaps, I still think it might be a good idea to list it under a Maps header. Sometimes the name of the Map is very long, and it causes the quest summary block to look pretty bad when it wraps around so much. Also, seeing as how you created most of the maps, what's the harm of hosting them on the wiki as well as ACMaps? The reason I ask is that the ACMaps website has been extremely slow in the past couple months, and sometimes non-responsive. I'd hate to see it break or something and we lose all the maps! ;) --Atarax 13:50, 2 January 2009 (CST)

That sounds good, I hadn't really thought it all the way though, now that there will always be a Maps section, I can just zoom to that part. It's fine with me if we take it out of the summary block. Or maybe even how about adding a hotlinks bar to the summary that goes to the main sections? Since it's a fixed width block and we normally go NOToC on quest pages. Since these things can look different in isolation, I've temporarily modded Mukkir Aspect of Grael to show you what I mean. Since they are all links to standard sections, it would just be boilerplate that would get added to the base template and wouldn't need to be changed for different pages. History Link if read later.

As far as the ACMaps, I would love to host maps here. But Greeneye holds the copyright (even on maps I made myself) so unless he changes his mind we have no recourse. Back when this happened An Adventurer and I started working on a new map format just for the wiki (Greeneye didn't want us to use the ACMaps format either), but it has kind of stalled (I was working on a new mapping utility but haven't worked on it for a few months). Also there's a potential collaboration in the works for providing customized spawn maps, and depending on how that turns out it may provide some new directions for our dungeon maps as well. But as long as the maps are available at ACMaps it's kind of considered a low priority since we won't be providing new content, just more convenient content and it will be time consuming. At any rate you don't have to worry about losing anything, I've already made arrangements to avoid any losses whatever might happen.--Tlosk 14:27, 2 January 2009 (CST)

I just checked out the Mukkir Aspect of Grael, and I really like what you did there a lot. I think that should be the standard template for all quests. Another reason why I think this is a good idea is for quests that have a lot of maps. For example, I just finished the Brewmaster Quest write-up, and it has at least 3 maps. Having them in their own section would be a lot cleaner then cramming them into the summary block, even if they're just links to ACMaps. Good work! --Atarax 10:52, 3 January 2009 (CST)

I understand that, especially with multiple maps, the summary looks bad. But it might be an idea to bring the paragraph of Maps up higher? Some walkthroughs can become rather long, and as a user (not writer ;) )of the quest guides, I like to immediately do "right click-new tab" for the map, and then read the walkthrough. Then about images and such, is it possible to get a sub-template for adding images in the general template? like.. table like? Thx! Sanddh 2:07, 12 January 2009 (CET)

Thats why we added the quick links to the top of the quest template. They are anchors that jump to each of the specific sections, like so:

Guide - Items - Maps - Images - Lore

It might be a better/different idea to incorporate the actual Table of Contents into the page somehow. Maybe Tlosk can come up with something like he did for the creature template, like the {{Exemplar ToC|Skeleton}} template. Maybe we could do something like that for the quests as well instead of the {{Quest Links}} snippit? --Atarax 19:09, 12 January 2009 (CST)

I'm working on a couple options, and will post again when I'm done. --Tlosk 14:53, 13 January 2009 (CST)

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