Talk:Forum

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March 2009

Zone Articles / Beta

Zone Articles:
As we update old patches with Zone articles such as teasers and build notes, should we delete the older archive we have? For example, we have a single page archive of the 1999/12/16 build notes here, and they are also archived under the Sudden Season patch announcements. For newer patches, we only archive articles on the announcement page, so I would think the older single page archives are not needed.

Beta and beta events:
There has been some work put into three beta event pages: Call to Arms, Wardiel's Campaign, and Fire in the Sky. Now, I did not play beta or even early release, but from what I can tell, it looks like Call to Arms and Wardiel's Campaign are at best live events in today's terms, while Fire in the Sky was an actual patch that updated the game files. I believe the only reason all three are getting a separate event page is because other fan sites (maggies for one) list them as such.

I would like to suggest that all information on the wiki relating to the beta be placed on a single page: Asheron's Call Beta. My reasoning for this is:

  • As stated above, 2 of the major beta "events" are nothing more than large scale live events, and I do not think they deserve a full patch page.
  • Most information we have or will have on beta will be in the form of archived Zone/Zogblaster/Microsoft Insider articles, and I think it would be most convenient to have all beta related articles on a single page.
  • Some beta information may not fit into any of the 3 "events". For example, there was a major update with build notes on 9/21/99 (link: [1]) that would not go into either Wardiel's Campaign or Fire in the Sky.

Edit: To clarify, what I am suggesting for the beta page is this: Asheron's Call Beta contains links to the various beta articles, similar to the Turbine Announcements sections of current patches. Announcements - Asheron's Call Beta will contain the archives of the articles. Dev Chats and non-event related lore would still be archived on separate pages, and would be linked to on the beta page.

--An Adventurer 15:55, 19 March 2009 (CDT)

That sounds excellent, and yeah I agree we should move the single articles into announcement pages and remove the originals, we just need to make sure to check for any links to them and update them (not many but a few here and there). Their rationale for being stand alone is no longer applicable. --Tlosk 08:00, 20 March 2009 (CDT)

I started the work on the beta page. You can see it here: Asheron's Call Beta & here: Announcements - Asheron's Call Beta. EDIT: Problem fixed. All <font>s needed a closing </font>. --An Adventurer 13:58, 25 March 2009 (CDT)

Reference Footnotes

To: Tlosk
Hey, I have a request for a wiki template. I'd like a simple template that I can use for the footnotes I made for lore articles. I just added my initial footnotes to the Timeline of Auberean I'm working on, and it was a +3,123 edit. I am using the following code to make footnotes (You'll have to edit to see it): 

[1]

I'd like to just have something simple like: 

{{Footnote|1}} or {{FN|1}} or {{Ref|1}}

Do you think you could put this together? --An Adventurer 13:48, 6 March 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer
You can now use wikipedia style footnotes by enclosing the link or reference in ref tags, then placing <references/> where you want the footnotes to appear. Clicking on any footnote number will automatically take you to that reference and highlight it. Numbering is automatic so inserting additional footnotes will automatically renumber any existing footnotes given the order they appear on the page. If a footnote is referenced more than once, add a name parameter the first time it's used (for example <ref name=loot>[[Loot]]</ref>), then each time you use it again use <ref name=loot/>. All such uses will link to the same footnote number, and the footnote itself will link back to all uses (names have to be a single word with no spaces).

For example: 

...Deru Trees.<ref name=Knight>2008/08 [[Ancient Powers]] - [[The Blessed Trees]]</ref>
...sun and stars.<ref>1999/11 [[Release]] - [[The Advocate Towers]]</ref>
...across the world.<ref>2008/08 [[Ancient Powers]] - [[The Blessed Trees]]</ref>
...Deru Trees.<ref name=Knight/>

----

<references/>

will display as:

The Falatacot diverge into two branches: the Dark Falatacot, dealing in the power of undeath and corruption in service to the Old Ones; and the Light Falatacot, working to protect what they consider to be worshipful spirits - the Deru Trees.[1]

Primordial gods struggle with evil shadow creatures. After a long contest that exhausted their powers, the gods banish the shadows into the earth by creating the sun and stars.[2]

The Deru Trees are created by the Light and they drive the Living Dark below, allowing life to spread across the world.[3]

The Falatacot diverge into two branches: the Dark Falatacot, dealing in the power of undeath and corruption in service to the Old Ones; and the Light Falatacot, working to protect what they consider to be worshipful spirits - the Deru Trees.[1]

  1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 2008/08 Ancient Powers - Knight Test
  2. ↑ 1999/11 Release - The Advocate Towers
  3. ↑ 2008/08 Ancient Powers - The Blessed Trees

Home Page Redesign

I think that ACC Wiki Home could use a redesign. I think it would be nice to have it laid out more like other wikis, like the wikipedia main page. What I am referring to are the sections wikipedia has labeled "Today's featured article", "Did you know...", "In the news" and such. Having our AC news and Wiki news tucked away as links on the side bar makes them less noticeable, and I admit I don't even update them much, but I probably would if they displayed on the front page.

One other thought I had. With the wiki software we have, are drop down menus possible? Like the ones on WoWWiki or the LotRO Lorebook?

--An Adventurer 14:50, 16 March 2009 (CDT)

I'm worried they would compete with navigational aspects. Ideally you can reach any content in the wiki in 3-4 clicks from the main page and the size of our wiki makes it possible (unlike Wikipedia where there's so much content that it's assumed people will just use the search box to get where they want to go) so more of the main page can be devoted to interest grabbing material.

It's possible to do drop down menus yes, they can be integrated into skins I know, and I assume something could also be done with the default monobook, I'll try to get something working. --Tlosk 17:28, 16 March 2009 (CDT)

I have a drop down navigation menu working now, it works on IE7+ and FF. If you want to tweak the menu items or add new sections, edit the MediaWiki:Sitenotice and the linked templates. For new sections a new template must be created (just a bulleted list, see the templates used list at the bottom when editing Sitenotice for examples). --Tlosk 13:01, 17 March 2009 (CDT)

Nice work. One thing I have noticed - the page title does not display correctly with the drop down menu on some pages. It is only pages with short names or a short word at the the beginning of its name, like Forum and ACC Wiki Home. The short word is being placed right of the menu, and then continues where the title is supposed to be. This is only happening on higher resolutions/wider windows. It does not occur on my laptop (1440x900), but does on my desktop (1680x1050). Both are using Firefox, laptop is running Mac OS X, desktop is running Windows XP. --An Adventurer 13:11, 17 March 2009 (CDT)

Correction. It is occuring on my laptop as well. Could this possibly be fixed by placing the menus on the left side, right above the page title? --An Adventurer 18:40, 17 March 2009 (CDT)

Just double checking that this works now for you? Having them on the left makes the menus pop up in an annoying way anytime you go to use the edit etc tabs but having it all the way to the right makes the drop down menu bleed off the page for the right most menu item so I originally used a width fix to have them go not all the way over but we had the title wrap error you noticed. I found that using the margin instead of width fixed it. But the behavior depends on css and that is cached so it may continue until the cache is cleared normally or forced (hold shift while clicking the refresh button in the browser). Also I found a way to add menus to the sidebar so after the upgrade I can set up some examples and see what you think. --Tlosk 07:57, 20 March 2009 (CDT)

Weapon & Armor Collection categories/templates

I would like to propose we create 2 new categories & templates called "Weapon Collection" and "Armor Collection" to classify "groups" of related weapons & armor. This would be used to A.) group similar weapons/armor together, like we have already done in many places, and B.) to group together various sets/upgrades that, while they may various quests, are related to one another.

Examples of possible Weapon Collections:

etc...

Examples of possible Armor Collections:

  • Shadow Armor => Regular Shadow Armor, Prismatic Shadow Armor, Sharded Shadow Armor, etc...
    Noble Armor => Contains Empowered Noble Armor (or whatever it will be called).
    Relic Armor => Contains Noble Relic, Ancient Relic, Relic Alduressa
    Hieromancer's Armor => Thaurugmatic Plate, Exarch Plate, Auroric Exarch Armor

Just throwing it out there. Since we already have several "groups" of weapons that are currently classified incorrectly as "Weapon", it might be a good way to properly classify this stuff. What do you guys think? --Atarax 00:58, 12 March 2009 (CDT)

Since there aren't a ton of them I might suggest having a "Collection" category and add it to the list pages (and keep the weapon, armor etc). But I'd be fine either way. Your call. --Tlosk 06:01, 12 March 2009 (CDT)

To: Tlosk
Well, I thought more about it last night, and I think afterall, it would be good to keep each group of weapons/armor separate, like Princely Runed Weapons vs Royal Runed Weapons. Then in the template, just have "related articles", which link to the others. I still think having a more specific category called "Weapon Collection" would be more appropriate than listing it under Weapon & Collection, since its not a weapon, its just a group of weapons. What do you think? --Atarax 10:38, 12 March 2009 (CDT)

I agree that a general collection would be better than specific weapon and armor. First, Tlosk is right - there are not many sets out there. Second, there are some possible collections that could contain both weapons and armor, and even jewelry. For example, the various renegade tumerok and lugian weapons, armor, clothes, and jewelry could be listed on a "Renegade Equipment" page. All the olthoi armor and weapons could be on another page. --An Adventurer 14:14, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

Honestly, I do not think we need to have many collection pages. For the most part, collections or sets come from the same quest, and all the items belonging to that set would be listed on the quest page anyway. I'm not saying we don't need collection pages at all, just that they should only be used when the entire set cannot be found on a single quest guide already. --An Adventurer 14:14, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

To: An Adventurer
I see your point. Lets take Weeping Weapons for an example, where would you propose that these be listed, if not on their own page? --Atarax 15:28, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

To: Atarax
Weeping Weapons would be listed on the Heart of Innocence (Quest) item listing. Elemental Weeping Weapons would be listed where they already are, on the Elemental Weeping Weapons guide item listing. The heart of Innocence would have Isparian Weapons (Quest) and Elemental Weeping Weapons listed as related quests.

Isparian Weapons would have the following quests listed as related: Shadowfire Stone (Quest), Heart of Innocence (Quest), Major Atlan Stones, Major Prismatic Stone (Quest). --An Adventurer 16:01, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

To: An Adventurer
Fair enough, I like that Idea. I'll start purging those "collection pages" and redirecting them to the quest that yields them. --Atarax 18:26, 13 March 2009 (CDT)

Spell Table

I've created an archive of files generated from the spell table of the client_portal.dat file. It contains information for the last six patches. Each patch has two files. The first has most of the data about each spell, including its name, description, icon, components, school, duration, caster effect, target effect, and target mask. A few of the fields don't seem to have much meaning, such as range/level, dura2, and the one labeled "2*lev". The other file shows the groups of spells that stack, with each spell sorted by difficulty within the group (the number on the left). This is useful for finding bugs with spell stacking.

You can compare the files to see what has changed in each patch. For this patch, I've summarized some of the changes on Talk:Who Watches the Virindi?. --Widgeon 02:31, 12 March 2009 (CDT)

Awesome, thanks, that will be a huge help. --Tlosk 06:03, 12 March 2009 (CDT)

Feb 2009

AC:DM CD lore documents classification

The AC:DM cd included several lore articles in the form of word documents. I want to add them to the lore section, but I'd like some input on how to classify them. There are two categories I am considering using: Internet Lore Article & Printed Material. They don't really belong in either category though. And there are only 12 of them, so I don't think they deserve a new category.

I was thinking printed materials because, while not printed, they were included as extras with the AC:DM product, similar to the manuals that I tagged as printed materials. I was thinking internet lore article because, while perhaps never appearing on the web, they fit in with the style of the internet lore articles, and if someone was looking for them without remembering their source was the CD, they might check the internet lore articles.

So what do you think? Tag them as printed, internet, both, neither?

--An Adventurer 13:51, 24 February 2009 (CST)

Since they came on the CD, it classify them as printed. Hey, you have to print a CD ;) --Atarax 13:55, 24 February 2009 (CST)

Mediawiki 1.14 Released

The 1.14 version was released on Sunday, I'm currently testing the upgrade on a test machine and in the next week I'll be upgrading the wiki. This will be a significant move as we are currently running version 1.10 (May 2007). Some preparation can be done ahead of time, however during the final backup and upgrade the wiki will be placed into a read only mode to avoid database conflicts, I'll give at least a 2 day warning before this happens. Help pages will be changed to reflect the changes once the upgrade is complete. Some special pages will appear different and quite a few new options will be available. --Tlosk 10:13, 23 February 2009 (CST)

Here are the 1.11, 1.12, 1.13, and 1.14 changes that will likely be meaningful to our specific wiki:

Images:

  • The Image namespace has been subsumed by the File namespace, while [[Image:Name.jpg]] will still work, the standard is now [[File:Name.jpg]] to display an inline image. [[Media:Name.jpg]] will still create a text link directly to the image and [[:File:Name.jpg]] will link to the image description page.
  • A new tag allows a single image to link to many pages instead of just a single page as was previously the case with a redirect on the image's description page. Add the parameter link=page name where the image is used. The image will act as a hypertext link to the specified page. The page name must not be enclosed in square brackets, and it is always interpreted as an internal link. For example, [[File:Pyreal Mote Icon.png|link=Atlan Weapons]] would link to Atlan Weapons when the image is clicked. In most cases we will continue using redirects to avoid having to duplicate the link each time the image is used.
  • Setting a caption for an image will display the caption explicitly if the image uses a frame and will display a popup caption if the mouse hovers over the image even if there is no frame. Now this popup can differ from the caption by adding the parameter alt=alt text. For example, [[File:Image.jpg|frame|alt=Asheron|Asheron in his tower on the island off the coast of Eastham.]] would display the full caption, but display "Asheron" if hovered.
  • The <gallery> tag accepts image names without an Image: prefix (just give name and caption).
  • New file cache for the parser that improves page rendering time on pages with several uses of the same image.
  • Image moving is now enabled for sysops by default. (2009-03-18 Disabled due to reports of data corruption/loss in some moves.[2])
  • Image redirects are now cached (nonlogged in users will view the normal page cache instead of forcing a page rendering).
  • A warning is shown when hash identical files exist.
  • Better proportional view of upright images related to landscape images on a page without nailing the width of upright images to a fixed value.
  • New 'border' and 'frameless' keywords added to the [[Image:]] syntax.
  • Removed hardcoded minimum image name length of three characters.
  • Allow HTML attributes on <gallery>.

New Syntax:

  • {{PAGESINCATEGORY:Category Name}} - For example {{PAGESINCATEGORY:Creature}} would display as 1,824.
  • Able to make arbitrary rows of sortable tables sticky (stick to top of table, not sort): |- class="unsortable"
  • Added magic word __STATICREDIRECT__ to suppress the redirect fixer.
  • Added magic word __HIDDENCAT__, when placed on a category page causes the category to be hidden on article pages.
  • New PAGESIZE parser function that returns the size of a page.

Search:

  • "Did you mean" search feature made more noticeable.
  • Drop-down AJAX search suggestions added.
  • More relevant search snippets are highlighted.
  • Drop-down selection of major search engines (Google, Yahoo, Windows Live, etc).

Special Pages:

Miscellaneous:

  • Configurable per-namespace and per-page notices for the edit form.
  • Search matches are now bold only, not red as well.
  • When a page doesn't exist, the tab will say "create", not "edit".
  • Users moving a page can now move all subpages automatically as well.
  • The User class now contains a public function called isActiveEditor. Figures out if a user is active based on at least $wgActiveUserEditCount number of edits in the last $wgActiveUserDays days.
  • Duplicate section anchors with differing case are now disambiguated.
  • White space differences not shown in diffs.
  • Add feed links for the site to all pages.
  • Allow bots to specify whether an edit should be marked as a bot edit, via the parameter 'bot'.
  • Allow HTML attributes on <math>.
  • Improved file history presentation.
  • Show edit count in user preferences.

I've successfully upgraded a test server and will be doing a full backup early Saturday morning on the 14th. The wiki will be read-only during this period. This will give us several days to get the bulk of the content up for the new patch before then. After verifying the backup I hope to complete the upgrade of the site Sunday or Monday following. If you find any unexpected behavior or errors, contact me via email. Also the template revisions and swiss tool update will be done by then so once the upgrade is live I'll start aggressively updating existing articles with the new template formats using the new tools that will be available to us. --Tlosk 17:12, 9 March 2009 (CDT)

Further testing revealed a few issues that I'm tracking down now, so it may be a few more days.

2nd Quest Template Revision Complete

I finished a first go at the various templates for the Quest Guide Template based on what you'd both come up with and posted the results on the Test Quest Page. The wikicode is at the bottom of the page. There's a special map links template now that links to the dungeon page and both the wiki and acmaps.com maps if extant, or another site if there's one. I abandoned my tile based mapping program development and am finishing automating as much as I can of a new workflow that produces a complete map in 10-15 minutes instead of several hours like it took before so it's going to be feasible to create our own maps for most dungeons. I'll start with unmapped dungeons then move to popular quest dungeons.

The experience and title table templates are flexible in the number of items and whether to include repeat info columns.

As suggested below, I added a link bar that mimics the link bar for special pages like Image file pages. Any of the items can be turned off by erasing the True values in the template.

After any initial feedback is incorporated we should probably use it on a few quest pages to see if anything unexpected turns up. --Tlosk 15:02, 15 February 2009 (CST)

Can we have a small link to Level Costs at the bottom of the Quest Experience Table? This would make it easier to figure out how much xp you'll get for levels below the xp cap. --Widgeon 00:43, 21 February 2009 (CST)

Sure, I added it in. --Tlosk 05:57, 21 February 2009 (CST)

Image Galleries

For aesthetic reasons I changed the backgrounds of the gallery thumbnails from light gray to black for higher contrast. Also to adjust the thumbnail sizes both the widths and heights parameters need to be specified. See How To Use Images#Image Gallery for more info. --Tlosk 16:59, 14 February 2009 (CST)

Show/Hide ability

I'd like to request the ability to create the show/hide function. Looking on wikipedia for examples, I was able to find two templates that we may be able to copy

Looks like these will provide the ability to make show/hide areas.

I would like this ability for the new quest guide template, currently being worked on in An Adventurer's Sandbox. I was thinking the ability to hide/show the Quest Summary, Rewards Summary, and Related Articles would be nice - but the feature may also be useful on other pages such as patches. --An Adventurer 14:50, 12 February 2009 (CST)

After an initial attempt I couldn't get it working, I need to track down all the dependencies and I may get it working, or it may have a dependency that is version related and it will have to wait for the upgrade.

It will integrate into the template itself so we can move ahead and it can be added when I get it working without having to change anything on the pages themselves. --Tlosk 16:51, 14 February 2009 (CST)

Kill Tasks Naming

Atarax and myself think we should come up with a new naming system for kill tasks. The current system is Hunter Quest (Creature Name). Some ideas:

  1. <Reward Title>, <Reward Title> Task, <Reward Title> Quest
    Example: Arctic Mattekar Annihilator, Arctic Mattekar Annihilator Task, Arctic Mattekar Annihilator Quest
    • Pros: Searching for a title would direct you to the quest, each kill task has a unique title.
    • Cons: Some titles may not be very descriptive of the task, a small number of kill tasks have multiple titles
  2. <NPC Task Giver>'s Task
    Example: Enzo Ilario's Task
    • Pros: Would provide unique names for every task
    • Cons: Not descriptive of task, a few NPCs give out multiple tasks (may not be an issue), some kill tasks may not have npcs (unsure).
  3. <Creature Name> Task, <Creature Name> Kill Task
    Example: Arctic Mattekar Task, Arctic Mattekar Kill Task
    • Pros: Identifies creature right in article name.
    • Cons: Some tasks are for multiple creatures.

I don't think there is any naming system for kill tasks that will be able to cover all types of tasks, so we should just pick whichever one works best for most and is able to deal with the odd ones in an easy way. --An Adventurer 14:50, 12 February 2009 (CST)

I'd vote for <Creature Name> Kill Task and for tasks with multiple creatures pick the most common creature for the full page and create pages for the other creatures that redirect to the full page. This would only be for cases where the various creatures all count towards the same goal. Where there are separate counts, like for the Cragstone Drudges I think there should be a separate page for each creature even though they share the same NPC since the counts, timers and rewards are discrete. --Tlosk 16:45, 14 February 2009 (CST)

I added this to Naming Conventions. --Tlosk 16:45, 14 February 2009 (CST)

"Introduced in" standard

I think we should make a standard for the "Introduced in" text that is displayed at the top of most pages. I think "Introduced in: [[??]]" used on creatures and possibly other page types should be phased out in favor of the "From the [[??]] quest introduced in the [[??]] event." standard used on items. Like items, if the creature is not from a quest, the first section is deleted and it just states "Introduced in the [[??]] event."

Which brings up a request for Tlosk or anyone else that knows about templates: Can we make a template for this, that is able to display either the quest + patch or just the patch? For example: 

{{Intro|Frore|Sudden Season}}

Would display as:
From the Frore quest introduced in the Sudden Season event.

and 

{{Intro|N/A|Sudden Season}}

Would display as:
Introduced in the Sudden Season event.

Would that be possible? --An Adventurer 20:20, 1 February 2009 (CST)

edit: I forgot about "updated in". Maybe the template would look more like 

{{Intro
 | Quest = 
 | Patch =
 | Update = Patch1, Patch2
}}

And perhaps it would be easier to create a template if it was displayed like this:

From: [[Quest]]. Introduced in: [[Patch]]. Updated in: [[Patch]], [[Patch]].

--An Adventurer 20:36, 1 February 2009 (CST)

I've gone through a couple iterations while I was working on the Key Template over the weekend. Currently what I'm using is a little awkward but works for everything (noun agreement and modifiers always break on something when used) but it is grammatical. I moved updates to the Notes section so that a description of what was done in the update can also be included. The format is "From {{{Quest}}} introduced in {{{Patch}}}."

I will change the format for creatures to do what you suggested. So where the quest field is blank or left out completely it will use Introduced in ... but when a quest is specified, for things like boss creatures that are strongly associated with a particular quest, it will use From .... introduced in .... --Tlosk 06:50, 2 February 2009 (CST)

To: Tlosk
I like the idea that An Adventurer had, however it might be good to change the formatting a bit, since everything is introduced but not everything has a qu--An Adventurer 12:58, 2 February 2009 (CST)est. For Example: 

{{Intro|Sudden Season|Frore}}

Would display as:
From the Frore quest, introduced in the Sudden Season event.

And for items with no quest: 

{{Intro|Sudden Season}}

Would display as:
Introduced in the Sudden Season event.

The other alternative is to ONLY list the introduction at the top, like Introduced in: Sudden Season, and then underneath it, have a comma separated list of related quests like this example of the Empyrean Golem Stone: 

{{Intro|Rekindling the Light|Crafting Golems, Diemos Flagging}}

Would display as
Introduced in: Rekindling the Light.
Related Quests: Crafting Golems, Diemos Flagging.

Any of those options would work, however it would be nice if we had a template that was designed to hold multiple quests. --Atarax 11:37, 2 February 2009 (CST)

I think having each piece of info a separate line like this might actually be a better format. And since it isn't trying to form the information into a sentence, we don't have to worry about the (Quest) at the end of quest names. I think if we go with this, we should still include the "Updated In" section at the top - this is a useful tool for navigation. For example, say you are trying to find a quest, and you know it was added in the patch that Branith's staff was updated. You search branith's staff and right at the top is the patch link you are looking for. --An Adventurer 12:58, 2 February 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer
My only concern is when quests are updated multiple times, which has happened a lot, especially recently with mana forge keys. Its always nice to see what was changed/updated in addition to when it was updated. This is why I propose that it be included in the notes setcion, or somewhere else on the page. If we add it to the top, it would have to be duplicated below if we want to describe what was updated in each patch. Maybe something like this would be useful? 

{{Updated|Patch Name|Added a [[Mana Forge Key]] to the rewards.}}
{{Updated|Patch Name|Increased XP Reward}}

Might show up as something like:

Just an idea... Any direction we take is fine by me. --Atarax 13:19, 2 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax
Quest pages don't use the "introduced in" standard. They have intro and update patch info in the summary, with details of updates in the general section.

Items and creatures are rarely updated multiple times, and certainly not in any ways that require explanation in notes sections. For example, when an item is updated we don't need to explain what was changed, we will include post- and pre-patch stats on the page, like the Crystal Sword. As for monsters - for the most part, updates to monsters is not worth mentioning. Knowing that a creature had a new trophy added, or got updated stats, isn't really useful information since only the current version of a creature can still exist in the game. The only time I can think of when a creature update would be useful is for big changes to bosses, like the various changes that happened to aerbax.

If we do ever feel like including old stats of creatures (I have both the original and AC:DM strategy guides, I have lots of info on old stats), we could simply include them in a fashion similar to old stats of items - list them on the page, below notes. --An Adventurer 13:34, 2 February 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer
Sounds good to me. So it appears the answer is to have multiple lines. Introduced In:, Updated In:, and Related Quests:. Would we ever possibly want to add Related Topics to this? Should it be kept separate? It wouldn't happen very often I would imagine. --Atarax 13:52, 2 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax, Tlosk
I cannot see any instance where we would need to use the related topics template on an item or creature, and only rarely on NPCs. Related topics should be kept its own template, and always be displayed as the first line. For the intro template, I agree. The 3 line method looks like the best solution.

As for the template itself. Tlosk has included the intro patch + quest as lines within the creature template and key template. I think that the intro template should be a separate wiki template - one that is placed at the top of Item, Creatuer, and NPC templates. This will make it easier to update if we decide to make changes, because we won't have to change the template code for npcs, creatures, armor, shields, jewelry, melee weapons, keys, and so on. There are a lot of page types that use the "introduced in" line, it would be much better to have it its own template. --An Adventurer 14:05, 2 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax, An Adventurer
I mocked up some options, see what you think: Sandbox Two. --Tlosk 16:54, 2 February 2009 (CST)

To: Tlosk
I like 1 and 6 the best, but would change "Quests" to "Related Quests". I think 1 would work best, because most entries are not updated, and only from 1 quest, so with 6 you would have these two little bits of info spread all the way across the page. But with 1 they are closer together. --An Adventurer 17:19, 2 February 2009 (CST)

I added a 7th example to Sandbox Two that combines 1 and 6, the full width box for uniformity and left justification for the text (couldn't figure that out before) and have a more typical text (1 quest and no updates) for comparison.

If there's one variable with an arbitrary number of parameters you can have the formatting in the template, but with more than one it isn't practical so the bracketing will need to be done manually the same as is done for trophies with creatures. For example: 

{{Intro
 | Patch Introduced = [[Sins of the Fathers]]
 | Related Quests = [[Hidden Presents]], [[Pets]]
 | Updated = [[Shifting Tactics]], [[Ancient Enemies]]
}}

--Tlosk 03:15, 3 February 2009 (CST)

To: Tlosk
7 looks very nice. It has my approval to be the basis for the intro template. --An Adventurer 09:44, 3 February 2009 (CST)

To: Tlosk
Yes, I like 7 as well. I actually enjoyed the Icons in #3, but they were too hard to read for someone unfamiliar with what they represent. Lets go with 7 and move on, I assume we could always adjust them in the future if we wanted to. --Atarax 10:21, 3 February 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer, Tlosk
I'm thinking it may be a good idea to create an extended, large, or vertical version of the intro template fragment for articles that contain a lot of quest references. For example I was looking at the Empowered Armor of Perfect Light Sets article that An Adventurer is working on, and honestly, the intro template does not work well here. There are so many "related" quests, that the top of the page is completely smashed, even on 1024x768. It would look decent for pages like this if the Related Quests portion was on its own line below the Introduced and Updated lines. Any thoughts on this? --Atarax 14:02, 4 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax
I think that the Empowereed Armor of Perfect Light will be a rare exception. First, it is really two sets combined in one page. Since they were introduced at different patches I had to show that. And three of the quest names and one of the patch names happens to be very long.

The intro template is going to be used on creatures, NPCs, and all types of items. For the majority of these entries, there will only be "introduced in" and "related quest" links. A few will have updates, and fewer will have multiple quests. I don't think we need to modify the template to work with these more rare occurrences. I'll just edit the PL armor page with shortened link names, or maybe make a Quiddity Seed Quest disambiguation page similar to the burun kings page. --An Adventurer 14:17, 4 February 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer
Works for me. /signed --Atarax 14:42, 4 February 2009 (CST)

I hadn't mentioned this, but I also had in the back of my head to have a section either on the template's page itself or on its talk page for a box of nontemplate code, that is all the code you'd use to produce the page without using any templates, this would allow you to manually tweak things for those exception pages where you want to deviate from the template. (Also it would help serve as a reference as the template code is just about unintelligible the first time you look at it.) --Tlosk 16:27, 4 February 2009 (CST)

Jan 2009

Housing Settlement Standardization

We need to come up with a standard way to handle housing settlements. There are two ways to do it. Either create a page for each settlement, or do it like we did with spells, and simple redirect the settlement name to the appropriate Housing Settlements page (which needs a drastic face lift, lol). I'm thinking the redirects is the way to go. Any suggestions? --Atarax 16:34, 31 January 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax
I like the idea of each settlement having its own page. I actually created cottage, villa, and mansion icons for the mapping templates with this in mind. I do agree though it will be a lot of work. I don't see much benefit in the settlement index, or having settlements redirect there. There is some vital information about settlements - type(s), exact number or housing, purchase items, drop coords, town hub - and I think this would be better displayed on a unique page. Also, using the Map Point template to display where the settlement is will be useful for people who choose their house by environment.

A possible problem with redirecting everything to an index is unnamed single housing and settlements. How would we deal with those?

Ideally, I would want every settlement to have a unique page, and have the coordinates displayed with the /hslist command redirect to the correct settlement - that way someone can just type in the coords and know exactly how to get there and what item they need.
--An Adventurer 17:26, 31 January 2009 (CST)

To: An Adventurer
Interesting thoughts. My only concern is that there are so many. If we can come up with a system for it, then I'd be all for it, but personally I think I'd want to look a a list of settlements in alpha order. That way I can just click "WhatLinksHere" and see all the quests and routes that go through the settlements. Granted, you could do this on each "individual page" as well, but it will take a lot of work. I'm down with it though, lets just come up with a solid template before we start, so we don't have to go back and re-do anything. --Atarax 13:12, 1 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax
Well your whatlinkshere function would probably work better with the portals to the the settlements, rather than settlements themselves. That's one thing I forgot to mention - settlements and their portals should be separate entries. --An Adventurer 13:28, 1 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax, An Adventurer
There will be some additional options available to us after the upgrade to 1.14 so we may want to put this on the backburner for a little bit. --Tlosk 05:38, 5 February 2009 (CST)

I Updated the Far Claw Villas page and added a sample housing template page. Any thoughts? Talk --Atarax 11:17, 20 February 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax
That looks great. --Tlosk 11:31, 20 February 2009 (CST)

Quest Transclusion Page

I have created a transclusion page for the quest by letter pages, Quests - Development. It mirrors the current contents of all the individual pages in one place to make it easier for those of us working on old quest writeups to search for aliases or see tables that need updating without having to click through all the letters.

Use the links to go to the original pages if you will be editing something. --Tlosk 11:03, 29 January 2009 (CST)

Live Image Placement and Size

In working on the templates for a couple of things that use live shots at the top right, I've found a way of anchoring the image so that it will always appear just to the right of the summary table. This allows you to use larger images if desired without worrying about breaking the page for people using a small browser window (where the image overlaps and hides part of the summary table). However it may not look as good when using a larger browser window (large white space in the right corner). I wanted to get a consensus on what the preference would be? I've temporarily edited Eldrytch Web Stronghold and Radiant Blood Stronghold for comparison.--Tlosk 09:08, 28 January 2009 (CST)

I figured out a sneaky way of forcing the image to justify right regardless of how large the browser window is while never overlapping the text if the browser window is small. I'll be integrating this feature into the other templates. Also it will no longer display an image if there is either no image specified or if Live.jpg is specified. --Tlosk 09:03, 30 January 2009 (CST)

Chests and Packs

Category talk:Container - --Tlosk 08:52, 28 January 2009 (CST)

Creature Stats Page

I've made a few changes to the Creature Entry Template, adding a Quests section with links to quests that are centered around that particular creature type and renaming the bestiary description section to simply Lore so I can include tidbits of fiction from the teasers and rollouts that I can find. I also changed the table appearance slightly and put the formatting information into a template so all 70+ creature pages can be manipulated at once if it needs to be changed. I finished adding all of the spawn maps and am now going through the creature pages one by one to update them. Also if you can look through your old images to see if you have any creature related artwork, especially player made from the early days of AC that would be great. --Tlosk 17:36, 27 January 2009 (CST)

Titles in Patch Page

I noticed all the Future Titles in the Current_Patch#New_Titles section. I guess this is from the hacked client data, but do you think we should include this in the Current Patch? I think it will become confusing because people will think that's when those titles were actually available. --Atarax 01:51, 24 January 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax
Personally I think they should go there as long as they are labeled as such, it helps a lot in trying to discover new content (although in this particular case we know it won't be for a while until some of them are actually available in game). Also it is useful historically in knowing when something was actually added. So as long as the labeling is clear, I think it's more helpful than not. --Tlosk 08:35, 24 January 2009 (CST)

Page Template Updates

All Page Templates are currently under review/construction in preparation for the next release of the Wiki Swiss Tool.--Tlosk 08:26, 24 January 2009 (CST)

Spells

I've started a cantrip template here. We'll use the talk page there to discuss improvements. --An Adventurer 13:10, 23 January 2009 (CST)

Individual Creature Template

To: Tlosk
I was thinking the that you could use the Class Variable to dynamically build the [[Category:Creature Class]] portion. That would eliminate any edits required at the bottom of the page for a typical creature. --Atarax 13:21, 23 January 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax
I've added that feature to the template, it can have it twice (at the bottom too), but it now automatically adds the Creature Category, the Class Category, and if there is a Subclass, that too. So you can just normally leave the bottom blank now when using the Creature page template and it will categorize itself according to what is put into the Class and Subclass fields.


The Individual Creature Template has been significantly changed in form though not in substance. It now uses a template for the table that lets you fill out the data in line rather than amongst tons of formatting info. The notes section has been kept out of the wiki template because there's a lot of variability there and also for a technical reason (you can't have actual page sections like == Notes == within a wiki template because when you click on edit it will take you to the template page and not stay on the page where the template is being used. Also just to clarify, a Page Template is what we use as a skeleton for an entire page, a Wiki Template is a smaller section of formatting code that is used within a page. So a page template can contain several wiki templates as part of it.

I made two more tweaks, now any stat left blank will automatically show as ?? so when go back to fill them in don't have to erase and for the xp just put the number. --Tlosk 06:37, 23 January 2009 (CST)

To: Tlosk
Nice, those changes will work. Question... Can you use the variables in more than one page on the page? Like Class? Or is it a 1 to 1 relationship? The other suggestion I have is to change some of the wording at the bottom to make the What Links Here line be automated instead of relying on someone to properly pluralize it. So, by default even the Class, Maybe something like this: 

* [[:Special:Whatlinkshere/{{PAGENAME}}|Locations]] where a {{PAGENAME}} can be found.

--Atarax 16:35, 23 January 2009 (CST)

To: Atarax
That's a good idea, to avoid agreement issues (a/an etc) I made it so it just says "* <Name> Locations." and added it the creature template. As I'm going through the old creature entries and changing them I've come across quite a few that were either missing the plural name all together or weren't pluralized so this will make it a lot better.

For example: 

{{Locations|{{PAGENAME}}}}

displays as:

--Tlosk 13:08, 23 January 2009 (CST)

Point Maps

See Template talk:Map Point Plus and Template talk:Map Point.

Wiki Templates

I've created a new help page, Wiki Templates that references several new formatting templates with more to come soon. The general idea of a template is it takes formatting code that is complicated and/or used in many articles and lets you refer to it rather than use it on every page. There are two benefits to this, one it makes posting simpler and second, it makes it possible to change the formatting for all those pages with a single edit to the template page rather than to all the individual pages.

These are different from Page Templates because they are used within a page for a part of it, rather a layout for an entire page.

There's no obligation to use them, and they aren't universally good, what you gain in ease of use, you give up in terms of being able to customize or stray from the format when you need to add things unique to that page. But overall templates help give the wiki a uniform feel, allow neophyte users to make complicated constructions, and minimize errors. --Tlosk 06:38, 24 January 2009 (CST)

Creature Template

To: Tlosk
I think I found a bug with the creature template, see Coral Tower for an example. If you try to show a creature class like Misc. Creature Class it will not work. Also, if you want to mask that link, like Wall, it will not show the label, only Misc. Creature Class

To: Atarax
Misc is an exception, you put just Misc. Creature Class for the Class, then put what is displayed under the Subclass and it will show correctly. However if a case comes up where you need to have an alias for a parameter for a template, you can use {{!}} instead of a pipe. For example: 

{{Related|:Category:Maps{{!}}ALL MAPS|Unmapped Dungeons}}

displays as:

Related topics: ALL MAPS, Unmapped Dungeons

--Tlosk 13:20, 22 January 2009 (CST)

Dec 2008

Spells

To: An Adventurer
I added the spell Mucor Jolt as a redirect for Drain_Health_(Spell), but as it is not "castable" (only found on a weapon), would this properly classify itself as Spell? It's not really a cantrip either, so where do you think it should be redirected to? Maybe Drain Health (Cantrip) ?

To: Atarax
Unique spells like that can have their own page, marked as Category:Unlearnable Castable Spell. The only time that a unique quest only spell should redirect to a standard spell page is when it has an effect that can be seen to stack with or surpass regular spells. For example, there are many quest only cantrips (like on the living weapons, or the spear of purity) but these can be proven to stack or override standard spells and cantrips.

So in short, most unique quest/item spells that mimic a life, creature, or item spell/cantrip will redirect to the appropriate page. Unique war and offensive life spells will have an individual page. And I think, for now at least, most of those special boss only debuffs should have unique pages, since many of them do not have a standard spell counterpart, and it is also rather difficult to find what standard debuffs they do stack with. --An Adventurer 18:30, 19 December 2008 (CST)

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